Pearls of the Orient

[Raging B(_)LL]

As per request from acb and my own desire to speak about this subject, this thread is dedicated to the discussion of fighters from the Far East. Any questions and opinions are welcome and I believe this thread has the potential of becoming one of the more informative ones on this new message board.

I had written a very long introductory post in which I had spoken of who my favourite fighters were and why, who were the best from a given country and spoke briefly about some lesser known fighters who I wanted to inform the board about.

Unfortunately my session timed out or something after I pressed the submit thread button and I had to log back in and when I did everything I wrote was gone. Since I cannot be bothered to spend another half an hour to rewrite everything I wrote earlier, I`ll drop by within a day or two and get this thread off the ground at that time if it hasn`t already done so by then.

[Sweet Pea]

Footage of a few that is easily accessible:

Fighting Harada: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Jiro Watanabe: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yoko Gushiken: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Shozo Saijo: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Masao Ohba: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Samart Payakroon: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Hiroyuki Ebihara: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Rolando Navarette: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Luis Espinosa: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Flash Elorde: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[teeto]

Thanks for making it easy to watch these guys Pea!

[acb_]

Ok, a few questions for you RB:

1. Can you list a top 10 to come out of Asia?

2. How do you see Pacquiao vs Elorde at 130lbs?

3. Who are two of the most underated boxers to ever come from the region?

[CJLightweight]

any footage of pancho villa

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by CJLightweight

any footage of pancho villa

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Raging B(_)LL]

Originally Posted by acb_

Ok, a few questions for you RB:

1. Can you list a top 10 to come out of Asia?

2. How do you see Pacquiao vs Elorde at 130lbs?

3. Who are two of the most underated boxers to ever come from the region?

1- Fighting Harada, Jung Koo Chang, Myung Woo Yuh, Pancho Villa, Masao Ohba, Sung Kil Moon, Yoko Gushiken, Kuniaki Shibata, Jiro Watanabe, Hiroyuki Ebihara.

2- I think Elorde could outbox Pacquiao if he fights him much the same way he did against Saddler in their second bout. He has to use his jab all night though to offset Pacs rythm and time him coming in with that sneaky right hook of his off the jab that he threw so well. But Pac`s aggression and significant edge in speed and power will pose a lot of problems for Elorde and I am not all that certain he could overcome them over fifteen rounds, Pac may well get through with enough heavy artillery to take Flash out before the final bell. Elorde should win this, but Pac is a live underdog and would be dangerous all the way through.

3- Venice Borkorsor and Shoji Oguma would be my picks. Borkorsor was freakishly strong and was one of the most powerful fighters in any weight division I have seen. He battered Betulio Gonzalez to defeat in their fight dropping him twice and having him on the verge of a knockout several times in their fight, and Gonzalez was a excellent fighter who was also very strong and had a good chin, yet Venice just beat him down like a red-headed stepchild in one-sided fashion.

At flyweight I wouldn`t pick anyone to beat him in a shootout not even Harada who would find himself having to fight off the backfoot and box, Borkorsor was just too strong and hard hitting a fighter to face head on. You had to outbox him and play it safe to have any kind of chance at victory, stand your ground and youb were as good as dead with this guy in front of you.

Even as a bantamweight he showed he was just as tough and powerful as he had the strongest bantamweight of them all in Rafael Herrera backing up in their fight and Herrera was usually the one coming forward in all of his fights, not vice-versa. Rafael got the nod in that fight but he should have walked away the loser as I thought Borkorsor won that fight, he beat the left side of Herrera`s face into a bloody and swollen mess that night and Herrera was never really the same after this fight.

Oguma on the other hand was a classic stand up boxer with good footwork and balance who won some and lost some against the best of his era. He had a good southpaw jab and sneaky left cross to the body which he surprised many an opponent with dead in their tracks as they came in. He fought Betulio Gonzalez four times and went 1-2-1 with him, but he really should have gotten the verdict in their third fight which was ruled a draw as he clearly outpunched and outfought Gonzalez in that fight and their second fight as well.

He also fought Chan Hee Park and Miguel Canto three times each if I remember correctly, beating Park in all their meetings (Park was a very good fighter btw) and losing to Canto in all of their bouts in close fights. He acquitted himself well against every top opponent he ever faced win or lose, and while not a great fighter he did give many greats a hard time in the ring and had some notable victorys during his career. Fun fighter to watch, and a dirty mofo too although clever at getting away with it.

[CJLightweight]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

thnx...i never expected to see vids these old in youtube

[acb_]

Originally Posted by Raging B(_)LL

1- Fighting Harada, Jung Koo Chang, Myung Woo Yuh, Pancho Villa, Masao Ohba, Sung Kil Moon, Yoko Gushiken, Kuniaki Shibata, Jiro Watanabe, Hiroyuki Ebihara.

RB if Pac retired today where would you place him amongst this list? I assume you don't rate boxers before they retire and that is your reasoning for not having him in this list. Correct assumption, or do you not see him in this company?

[Raging B(_)LL]

Originally Posted by acb_

RB if Pac retired today where would you place him amongst this list? I assume you don't rate boxers before they retire and that is your reasoning for not having him in this list. Correct assumption, or do you not see him in this company?

I usually rate fighters only after they have retired, and as for wether Pac makes it into the top ten it depends on what direction his career takes after the DLH farce because as it stands I don`t feel his resume makes the cut. And if he is serious about retiring in 2009 and does so without fighting the likes of Campbell, Guzman or Diaz for example at lightweight then he will not get into my top ten for sure as his body of work up until now while impressive is just not as good as the fighters I listed. But should he go on to beat DLH and then defeat a few more solid fighters at lightweight I may reconsider my position, but something tells me that that scenario is rather unlikely to happen.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Any of you folks care to comment on how you think a fight between Shozo Saijo and Kuniaki Shibata would have unfolded? I`ve always felt this was a compelling matchup on paper, with Shozo the tall, lanky boxer-puncher with the quicker hands and feet against Shibata the shorter and slower but better conditioned and stronger fighter of the two making for a good clash of styles.

I`d make Saijo the favourite as he was considerably faster and could move around the ring very well before suddenly pouncing on his man with a solid two fisted attack. If he trys to bomb Shibata out of there early I think he has a good chance of pulling it off, Kuniaki needed a few rounds to warm up and if you got him early you could take him out like Villaflor, Escalera and Sanchez did.

But once Kuniaki got the sweat going and was warmed up he was a tough, tough customer and he`d be coming forward all night looking to get inside on Saijo and bang away at his ribs to slow him down. If Shibata could manage to slow his man down late in the fight than I think he can outwork him dow the stretch or stop him from accumulative punishment.

The fact that Saijo also liked to get involved in unnecessary exchanges when he didnt have to would also see Kuniaki get his opportunitys to work the body and try and use his superior physical strenght to maul Saijo when in close to get him to slow down. Either way, this would`ve been a good fight I reckon, anyone else care to chime in with their own thoughs on this matchup?

[sweet_scientist]

I plan on putting all my scorecards up here for close or controversial fights featuring asian fighters. Will do it after I come back from the wake I have to go to.....

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

I plan on putting all my scorecards up here for close or controversial fights featuring asian fighters. Will do it after I come back from the wake I have to go to.....

And here it is. Feel free to discuss any of the following fights with me:


Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez II: 144-143 Gonzalez
I gave rounds 3,4,5,9,11 and 15 to Oguma. I gave rounds 1,7,8,10,12,13 and 14 to Gonzalez. I had rounds 2 and 6 even.

Shoji Oguma vs. Betulio Gonzalez III: 146-141 Oguma
I gave rounds 5,8,11 and 15 to Gonzalez. I gave rounds 1,2,3,4,6,7,9,10,13 and 14 to Oguma. I had round 12 even.

Shoji Oguma vs. Miguel Canto III: 145-143 Canto
I gave rounds 4,6,7,10 and 14 to Oguma. I gave rounds 1 (my shitty copy of the fight cuts out right at the point when Oguma goes down - can't tell if it was a legit knockdown or not, so I called it 10-9),5,9,11,12,13 and 15 to Canto. I had rounds 2,3 and 8 even.

Masao Ohba vs. Betulio Gonzalez: 145-144 Gonzalez
I gave rounds 2,5,6,7 and 13 to Ohba. I gave rounds 3,4,9,10,12 and 15 to Gonzalez. I had rounds 1,8,11 and 14 even.

Masao Ohba vs. Susumu Hanagata: 145-142 Ohba
I gave rounds 7,9,12,13 and 15 to Hanagata. I gave rounds 1,2,3,4,5,6,8 and 11 to Ohba. I had rounds 10 and 14 even.

Chatchai Sasakul vs. Yuri Arbachakov I: 115-114 Arbachakov
I gave rounds 2,3,5,6 and 7 to Sasakul. I gave rounds 4,8,9,10,11 and 12 to Arbachakov. I had round 1 even.

Mitsonuri Seki vs. Vicente Saldivar I : 144-141 Saldivar
I gave rounds 1,4( 10-8 ), 5,14 and 15 to Seki. I gave rounds 2,3,7( 10-8 ),8,10,11,12 and 13 to Saldivar. I had rounds 6 and 9 even.

Venice Borkhorsor vs. Rafael Herrera: (Have only seen 10 of the 15 rounds)
I gave rounds 1,3,13 and 14 to Borkhorsor. I gave rounds 4,9,10,11 and 15 to Herrera. I had round 2 even.

Manny Pacquiao vs. Juan Manuel Marquez I: 114-112 Pacquiao
I gave rounds 3,5,6,8,9 and 11 to Marquez. I gave rounds 1( 10-6 )2, 7,10 and 12 to Pacquiao. I had round 4 even.

Manny Pacquiao vs. Juan Manuel Marquez II: 114-114 Draw
I gave rounds 1,3 ( 10-8 ),4,9 and 10 to Pacquiao. I gave rounds 2,5,6,8 and 11 to Marquez. I had round 7 even.

Jung Koo Chang vs. Hilario Zapata I: 145-142 Chang
I gave Zapata rounds 4,9,10,13 and 15. I gave Chang rounds 1,2,5,6,7,8,12 and 14. I had rounds 3 and 11 even.

Hiroyuki Ebihara vs. Pone Kingpetch II: (Have only seen 11 of 15 rounds)
I gave Kingpetch rounds 5,9 and10. I gave Ebihara 1,2,3,4,5,11,14 and 15.

Hiroyuki Ebihara vs. Horacio Accavallo II: 144-143 Ebihara
I gave Accavallo rounds 6,7,8,12,13 and 15. I gave Ebihara rounds 1,2,3,4,5,10 and 11. I had rounds 9 and 14 even.

Fighting Harada vs. Pone Kingpetch II: (Have only seen 12 of the 15 rounds)
I gave Kingpetch rounds 10,11,13 and 14. I gave Harada rounds 1,3,6,8,10( 10-8 ) and 15. I had rounds 2 and 12 even.

Fighting Hadara vs. Eder Jofre I: 145-141 Harada
I gave Jofre rounds 3,5,6,8,10 and 14. I gave Harada rounds 1,2,4( 10-8 ),7,9,12,13 and 15. I had rounds 6 and 11 even.

Fighting Harada vs. Eder Jofre II: 144-143 Harada
I gave Jofre rounds 1,2,4,7,10 and 12. I gave Harada rounds 3,5,6,9,13,14 and 15. I had rounds 8 and 11 even.

Fighting Harada vs. Johnny Famechon I: 145-140 Harada
I gave rounds 1,6,9 and 12 to Famechon. I gave Harada rounds 2( 10-8 ), 3,4,8,10,11( 10-8 ) and 14. I had rounds 5( 9-9 ),7,13 and 15 even.

Fighting Harada vs. Bernardo Caraballo: 143-142 Harada

I gave Caraballo rounds 3,6,8,9,12 and 15. I gave Harada rounds 1,2,5,7,10,13 and 14. I had rounds 4 and 11( 9-9 ) even.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

Fighting Harada vs. Bernardo Caraballo: 143-142 Harada

I gave Caraballo rounds 3,6,8,9,12 and 15. I gave Harada rounds 1,2,5,7,10,13 and 14. I had rounds 4 and 11( 9-9 ) even.

You really had that fight that close S_S? I had Harada winning it by 4 points myself and thought he did most of the better work, although Caraballo made him work hard for the win. Say, have you ever seen any footage of Kuniaki Shibata or Shozo Saijo? If you haven`t I will have to remedy that won`t I?

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Raging B(_)LL

You really had that fight that close S_S? I had Harada winning it by 4 points myself and thought he did most of the better work, although Caraballo made him work hard for the win. Say, have you ever seen any footage of Kuniaki Shibata or Shozo Saijo? If you haven`t I will have to remedy that won`t I?

A few rounds were close i felt, and i've probably sided with Caraballo on those rounds. I did feel Harada clearly won, but Caraballo was there with him most of the way and had that been in Columbia, I could see a home town call easily.

I was really impressed with Caraballo's speed and combination punching from unorthodox angles. He hit Harada flush with some beautiful shots and had he been a banger that would have been bad news for Masahiko. Caraballo did lack finesse and refinement though. He kinda reminded me of a discombubulated version of Kid Gavilan.
version of Kid Gavilan.

On Saijo-Shibata, I've only seen Shibata's fight with Saldivar and just bits of Saijo so I don't feel really comfortable in picking a winner there, but I would love for you to remedy that for me!