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What does this win do for him? His legacy?
Most importantly, how badly do you think you have under rated him, if at all?
Thoughts?
What does this win do for him? His legacy?
Most importantly, how badly do you think you have under rated him, if at all?
Thoughts?
Last edited by acb_; 12-07-2008 at 03:32 PM.
Well bud I think this moves him to the top 20 or 30 in regards to atg. From what I read I heard Barney Ross was on the decline himself before Armstrong beat him. But a fight with Hatton and win would put him in the elites. More importantly a fight with Mayweather can help both and who can get that ATG spot. As of right now Floyd has him imo. But a win over Hatton will make it a tie. So a fight with Floyd may happen in Dec 09 and this can determine who has a better legacy.
Cheers M8
He was around the 80-90 area on my ATG list prior to this fight, so he's nowhere near top 20-30, especially considering how dreadful Oscar looked. Still, a very impressive performance last night, probably showed me more skills and overall ability than I thought Pacquiao posessed prior to the fight. He's probably moved up to somewhere in the 60's now that his abilities have been made more apparent in a P4P sense.
Still, people don't seem to have any perspective on this win whatsoever. They don't seem to realize that he couldn't even conclusively beat the elites at his natural weight class, so let's not blow this win out of proportion by acting as if he beat a top fighter or is capable of hanging with the top fighters at these higher weights. It's pretty obvious Oscar was just a shot fighter, and a sitting duck in the ring.
I think Pacquiao's a marvel in that he's a true physical specimen, one who posesses amazing muscular and athletic genetics and who's mastered weight-jumping because of it. I don't however, think that he's head and shoulders above (if even ahead of at all) any of the elites around any particular weight he's fought at, even if he's much better accustomed to fighting at a different variety of weights than they are.
To really prove himself as an elite ATG, I'd rather he just proved himself at a weight or two and showed that he could consistently beat elite opposition rather than jumping from weight to weight against less than stellar opponents. I'd be much more impressed with a win over a guy like Campbell or Guzman than over De La Hoya, now that we've seen what little Oscar had to offer. If he can prove that he can be the best among the elite fighters at a single weight, I'll be more impressed than with what he's been doing, because that would prove he has the skills rather than just the genetics to compete through multiple weights.
Pea, but I heard Ross was shot to pieces when he fought Armstrong. Is this true? If so let me know what made Armstrong a special fighter. Honestly Hoya didn't look shot against Forbes. But he was getting hit a little more than he should had.
Hoya didn't look shot against Forbes because Forbes had absolutely nothing to offer him, not to mention the fight was at 154 where Oscar wasn't terribly effected by the weight.Originally Posted by smoochp
What exactly does Armstrong/Ross have to do with this? Ross was past his prime for sure, but he was still a very game fighter, not a shot, shell like the Oscar we saw last night. Still, I don't see the relevance.
What Ross and Armstrong has to do with this is that there comparing Pac and Hoya to this. There saying Hoya like Ross was shot. There saying Pac is like Amstrong leaping classes. I see the relievane and plus a win over hatton will really help his legacy.
They were simply saying Pacquiao is an effective weight-jumper like Armstrong.
A few things they aren't taking into account:
-Armstrong was a simultaneous 3 weight champion, meaning he held 3 belts in 3 different weight classes all at once, and he did so all in under a year, during a 3 year span in which he went 59-1-1 with 51 KO's.
-There was only one title per weight class (the world title) when Armstrong was competing, so it's not as if he was beating a certain paper titlist at each weight he fought at in order to increase his resume on paper as the majority of champs today do. He was beating the top guy at each weight, from Feather to Welter.
-Armstrong was winning his titles in the original 8 weight classes, no in between weights, which is where a guy like Pacquiao has had almost all of his success in. So while Pacquiao is picking up portions of paper titles at in-between weights, Armstrong was winning world titles in original weight classes (Featherweight, Lightweight, Welterweight).
-Armstrong wasn't the type of fighter to pop in and out of weights like a Mexican jumping bean the way guys like Pacquiao and Floyd are doing. He defended his Welterweight title (this is a natural Featherweight who routinely fought his Welterweight opponents weighing no higher than the LW limit) 19 times!
-As said above, Armstrong didn't acclimate to the weights like Pacquiao. He didn't have the advantages of modern nutrition to beef up to suit himself to the different weight classes. He simply fought his much bigger opponents at his own natural weight to hid own disadvantage, and beat them all, all the way up to MW.
-Speaking of MW, he'd have held 4 titles in 4 of the original 8 weight classes had he been given the correct decision over Ceferino Garcia (it was ruled a draw) in his MW run. Admittedly though, this was not for the world title, but rather a paper title, as is the case with what Pacquiao's been doing mostly.
-Pacquiao didn't even beat Oscar for a title! A fighter in Oscar's condition wouldn't be holding any share of any title these days anyway.
-Ross was one of the top 10 greatest fighters P4P in boxing history IMO, the first guy (pre-Armstrong) to win titles in 3 seperate weight classes simultaneously (though he did it at LW, LWW, and WW, rather than in all 3 original weight classes as Armstrong did). I'd list his resume, but it's quite extensive and I haven't the time. Suffice it to say a win over a past prime, but still very game version of Ross (who was the world champion at WW), is much more substantial than beating a completely shot De La Hoya for nothing but a hefty purse.
Would you say that Pac is the closet thing to Amstrong as modern fighters are concerned
There have been plenty of weight jumpers in recent times, more now than ever really. Mayweather, Jones Jr., De La Hoya, etc. I don't see how Pac's distinguished himself from that group unless you're one of those who puts a lot of weight into the fact that he started off as a Flyweight (I'm not, as he was still a young kid growing into his body at Flyweight, it's not like that was his natural weight).
Would you say that Pac is the closet thing to Amstrong as modern fighters are concerned
I think what does Pacquiao for me is that he has consistently fought A grade opposition his entire career back to back to back and has won just about all of his fights. If he fights Ricky Hatton it would be a great win for his career. After Hatton it could be Mayweather if it gets under his skin that Pacquiao just obliterated the last two opponents that he ended his career with. If Mayweather stays retired then Pacquiao could always rematch JMM or some other guys that wanna come up to 140lbs..If not Pacquiao can be suicidal and fight Cotto or Berto or some other Title holder that is relatively his size in the ring. He is at 5 divisions so far right? 140 would make him 6? And then be crazy and get KO'd shooting for 7. Either way...His career was fucking amazing as it stands right now.
Well broken down by Sweet Pea, I agree pretty much wholeheartedly.
Barney Ross was always a better fighter than DLH, and wasn't near as shot as Oscar was against Pac. He went 15 rounds with Armstrong, more than half of them being competitive, and sustained a brutal beating without ceding defeat. Rumours of Armstrong carrying Ross are garbage. All you need to do is watch the footage available to see that.
Had Armstrong been in with Oscar, DLH probably wouldn't have time to quit. He'd be knocked out in about 5 rounds I'd say, probably with body shots.
Just want to reiterate though that I was super impressed with the way Pac fought Oscar. It was clinical and brilliant. He had a dead man in front of him, but I doubt many could have defeated him with such aplomb.
Also want to express some disappointment in Oscar. I know he was through, but I thought he showed a lack of heart in there. He accepted the futility of trying a little too easily for me, and that doesn't do his legacy any favours.
Its actually really shocking to hear that Pac is only at the 60-70 range on ATG lists. I would have figured much higher, but thats just from someone on the outside looking in as I dont have a list myself
I'd have to agree with this range. I'd say somewhere in the 60's. De La Hoya looked shot, and for me, I was never overly impressed with him to beging with. He had a life and death struggle with Quartey, a very good fighter, but not great. He ran from Trinidad for the last 4 rounds. I personally think he had the right gameplan for Mayweather, but wasn't willing to go out on his shield (unlike Hatton) in an effort to win the fight.
Having said all that. I thought Paqcuiao showed some things he hadn't shown a whole lot before. His movement, and angles were impressive even against a shot fighter. It was almost a Barrera like career change. Pac could have a very long career if he can continue fighting this way. I'd love to see Pac vs JMM one more time at 135, and also Pac vs Hatton. I'd say he's definitely not top 20, probably not top 50 but he certainly has that potential.
I don't really do lists anymore, so i'll just keep it simple.
The real meat of Pac's career so far is at feather and junior lightweight.There he's a excellent, proven fighter, about on par with a Marquez.This is where he's arguablt a great fighter for some imo.
At super-bantam he was still drained and huge(lookd about two weightclasses bigger than ledwaba) at the weight.Still fairly one-dimensional and raw, but with more than enough physical ability and power to rate as one of a very historically weak divisions best fighters.
Below that a ridiculously drained and huge Fly who would lack the skills or experience to deal with the greats and near greats of the division.More or less a dangerous punching spoiler here....has the raw talent to upset more established fighters if they come in overconfident\ out of shape as the Sasakul fight showed, but not a serious factor overall.
At lightweight and above its way too early to rate him.The Oscar beating is my favourite beating for a long time though.
I will say that even though Oscar has obviously lost another two steps since the Floyd fight, it does put into perspective how notably less formidable FLoyd has become since his 130 days.If he was really still the ring-maestro he's hyped by many as he would have done a number on "i've been phoning it in since i lost to mosley again" Oscar, that would have made clinics like Canto vs Betulio Gonzalez 2, Benitez vs Cervantes and so on look like life and death struggles.
my opinion is that he is a true great fighter, undeniable, a warrior that comes to fight everytime, he has a good few weaknesses in his make-up obvious most of them are, but he is a winner. The win over Oscar is one i give a lot of credit to, but the win might not be quite as enhancing to his legacy as some may think right off, as Oscar hasnt done anything at the weight or of great substance for a good while as we know. It still is great though in terms of how he beat a much larger foe, i must say. I normally seem to focus on guys who were great or dominant at a particular division, not sure why, but i must be objective and say this man has achieved true greatness in the sense of moving up in weights, greatness can be achieved in multiple ways. Great warrior and fighter we have had the PRIVELEGE to live in the time of by my reckoning.
I did pick Pac to win officially on a thread, i said it was more out of wanting him to rather than thinking he would, but im glad it happened. Also im sure i added that Pac is a true great fighter whereas Oscar in my opinion tricked the world into believing he was a great fighter. I know that this fight has not single handedly exposed his 'greatness', as he is not at his best by any means these days, but i do hope it in a way has put the final nail in the coffin on the subject of it.
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