My thoughts regarding Mijares

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

You do realise head 2 head and pound 4 pound means hypothetical match ups, if both fighters were the exact same weight don't you? I don't have time to respond in full right now, but from the quick browse of your post, it seems you have confused this, with thinking those guys could literally compete with fighters at the higher weights. Anyway, will respond in detail later on.

I am not confused by this at all concerning what p4p or h2h means. I am responding to the fact that you think some of us are overrating these small fighters - judging by their speed, and then thinking yourself that they are technical fighters for the mere reason that they are nimble. However, I was confused to your approach, as it seems you use the Vic(which has nothing to do with p4p or h2h) fight to illustrate that Mijares is not as good as many of us might have expected(p4p or h2h in your case). My point was, that since Mijares didn't move up in weight, your Vic point is - well - pointless.

Those who have Mijares very high, is because he normally masters so many aspects of the game. Some of which don't drop at higher weight; anticipation, great jab, varied boxing etc - not because they think he can maintain the same speed at higher weight. I tried to illustrate that for you - I guess I failed, sorry about that. Technical skills don't drop at higher weight. Either you have it or you don't.

[MSTR]

[quote]

Originally Posted by DanePugilist

I am not trying to discredit your pick - since you said yourself that you thought Mijares would win. And I may misinterprete your post(s) entirely. We aren't disagreeing on speed - that is as you say common sense. However, I don't agree that being nimble makes them automatically more technical. Yes, one can be more easily fooled to think they are in comparison to the other extreme, heavyweights. Some small boxers have a high technical level, while others don't, ie Arce.

Their size though allows them to move more freely defensively, to put combinations together easier, to counter easier, to take flush shots easier, and to maintain a higher pace throughout the fight.

You take guys at middle weight for example. The likes of Pavlik and Abraham are never ever going to be able to compare in that regard, to those lighter fighters. There physical attributes simply will not allow them to fight like that.

To an extent some of the skills that Mijares shows, can be attributed to his size. What you have to look at, is how skillfull he is comparatively to the rest of the division. As proven against Vic, he simply is NOT the best h2h fighter in the sport, otherwise he would be annihilating the other guys in the division. He would be dominating much like a prime Roy Jones Jr, something he has never come even close to doing except against Arce, who in reality is extremely limited, and struggled with the likes of limited fighters like Hussein, and has since gone on to prove this point even further in recent outings.

There are boxers that are crude, and others that are highly technical at all divisions. Higher speed is pretty much evened out at lower weights, as they are all nimble in comparison to the higher weights - so not sure why you think that people automatically think they are better just because they fight faster at that given weight - as most people realize that speed lessens as you gain pounds.

Exactly my point. It is evened out, as the opponents share the same advantages. The reason IMO though that the likes of Gamboa and Mijares have been over rated, is that because of their speed, there skills are awesome to watch, and some get carried away, instead of looking at how strong they are in comparison to everyone in the division. If Mijares was truely a godly fighter, he would be dominating and stopping b class fighters, not losing rounds, and being far too inactive at times.

Same goes with Gamboa. If he were this boxing god he has been made out to be, he wouldn't be getting dropped and looking so uncomfortable against guys that are less than top level. A lot of people get caught up in hype. Go and watch some early Roy, some early Shane Mosley, early FMJ and have a look at how awesome these guys are. Gamboa certainly doesn't look better than these guys did early in their career, despite some impressive knockouts so far. He has a tonne of potential, and will most likely be an elite fighter, but to be "godly" is an entirely different story.

No one thinks that ie Calzaghe would beat a heavyweight just because he is faster than they are or even more technically sound. No one thinks that Pacquiao will beat DLH just because he is faster. So I can't see the basis of your argument. Nor do I believe that Mijares or Gamboa could just move up several weights and still dominate. Nimble fighters don't have the same punch resistance as those of higher weights do - they aren't used to it. Nor are they used to their bodies being heavier, and less responsive.

This is the part of your post i responded to. This makes no sense, i never spoke about fighters moving up to fight much heavier opponents. Not sure what point you are trying to make here?

Some boxers are able to move up in weights and still maintain their qualities, while most people just can't do these things. DLH could do it, Hopkins could, Hearns could as well. Some boxers most important asset is speed, like PBF, and him packing on more and more weight, will make him less of a speedy fighter, and much of his game drops significantly. Some have a power advantage at a certain weight class, but it drops as they move up - ie PBF again.

Relevance?? What is this in response to, i am totally lost here?

The smaller divisions is touted highly simply because they have alot of good boxers. At least it is that way to me.

More so than other divisions??
Really?? I thought 147 and 135 were the two strongest divisions in boxing right now, much higher then Mijares weight. Perhaps i am wrong??

Lastly, if you yourself thought that Mijares would win prior to this match, even if you think it would be harder than most thought - why do you suddenly think he has no chance now, just because he was shutout in this match? Had Vic more than you thought he had, or Mijares less?

Because he was so thoroughly dominated. Which proves a massive style disadvantage, not a "bad performance". Look at any time a fighter gets dominanted in that fashion. Pac v Mab for instance. Whilst no doubt he can come back, it would most likely be very difficult and unlikely.

Physically and psychologically that would have been a very taxing fight for Mijares.

[MSTR]

Originally Posted by DanePugilist

Okay.




Lacy hadn't proven himself against top level competition. Mijares has. Lacy has never proven he could assert himself once he met a speedy fighter, Mijares has proven he could beat a crude fighter with alot of power. There is a vast difference.

Mijares resume is really not that much deeper than Lacy's though. There are no elite fighters on either one.

Lacy had definitely beaten faster fighters... What about Syd Vanderpool or especially Omar Sheika???

The difference is the caliber of the fighter in that instance.

in your comparison, it is largely invalid because you have placed two guys side by side in Vic and Arce who are different fighters all together. Arce a swarming pressure fighter, Vic a boxer puncher, more so a puncher but still a different mold of fighter.

If this were not so, why would he have so much trouble with one and be so dominant against the other??

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Their size though allows them to move more freely defensively, to put combinations together easier, to counter easier, to take flush shots easier, and to maintain a higher pace throughout the fight.

You take guys at middle weight for example. The likes of Pavlik and Abraham are never ever going to be able to compare in that regard, to those lighter fighters. There physical attributes simply will not allow them to fight like that.

Being technical has little to do with the pace you can fight. Having speed is an aspect of a technical ability as much as natural ability.

It has something to do with how well rounded you are and how technical correct you fight. Every division is relative in pace and power. Saying that a heavy weight can't be a technical fighter, simply because he is slower than a flyweight, I don't agree with that.

Many believe that Welter or Middleweight are those divisions where most abilities comes together, where speed and power are optimal. And therefore it gets the most attention.

Pavlik isn't a technical fighter, simply because he is crude as hell. AA isn't wellrounded - he has a very good defensive game, and carries alot of one-punch power.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

To an extent some of the skills that Mijares shows, can be attributed to his size. What you have to look at, is how skillfull he is comparatively to the rest of the division. As proven against Vic, he simply is NOT the best h2h fighter in the sport, otherwise he would be annihilating the other guys in the division. He would be dominating much like a prime Roy Jones Jr, something he has never come even close to doing except against Arce, who in reality is extremely limited, and struggled with the likes of limited fighters like Hussein, and has since gone on to prove this point even further in recent outings.

I don't agree with what you are saying here, Mijares is well rounded no matter what division he fights in. However, he lacks power even at his division, and would do even more so the higher he rose. Yes, the version we saw against Vic, shouldn't be in top 20 p4p. Nor should Vic. Btw I have never said Mijares is the best H2H or even P4P(never even crossed the top 7 mark for me p4p).

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Exactly my point. It is evened out, as the opponents share the same advantages. The reason IMO though that the likes of Gamboa and Mijares have been over rated, is that because of their speed, there skills are awesome to watch, and some get carried away, instead of looking at how strong they are in comparison to everyone in the division. If Mijares was truely a godly fighter, he would be dominating and stopping b class fighters, not losing rounds, and being far too inactive at times.

Yes, their speed and in the case of Mijares his well-rounded game. They are faster than those at their own division, which in themselves are the fastest of the lot. Yet, again - I have never called Mijares a godly fighter, that is someone else. I admire him for being so good at different things, except for the power part. Sadly he also lacked in the mental/focus area against Vic - and like Gamboa he seems to suffer from being arrogant.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Same goes with Gamboa. If he were this boxing god he has been made out to be, he wouldn't be getting dropped and looking so uncomfortable against guys that are less than top level. A lot of people get caught up in hype. Go and watch some early Roy, some early Shane Mosley, early FMJ and have a look at how awesome these guys are. Gamboa certainly doesn't look better than these guys did early in their career, despite some impressive knockouts so far. He has a tonne of potential, and will most likely be an elite fighter, but to be "godly" is an entirely different story.

Gamboa has incredible natural abilities just like Roy. However, he is too confident of himself, and still has alot to work on. So far he has faced better opposition than Roy did with the same number of fights. It is harder to excel with better competition. But comparing him to one of the best ever, is not really fair. Yet again, I have never called Gamboa godly - this is again another poster. And we seem to view him much the same way, really.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

This is the part of your post i responded to. This makes no sense, i never spoke about fighters moving up to fight much heavier opponents. Not sure what point you are trying to make here?

I was uncertain what point you were trying to make, as in if we felt that Mijares with his abilities could just move up several weight classes and dominate - and therefore had him very high p4p or even h2h. I just refuted that. If I misinterpreted your point, then disregard.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Relevance?? What is this in response to, i am totally lost here?

Again, a point to prove that some fighters have what it takes to rank highly, when comparing them H2H or P4P with other fighters, simply because they don't lose their quality when moving up or down. Wasn't your point that we are bedazzled by the small fighters speed and therefore their quality due to nimbleness, thus ranking them above where we should(according to you)?

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

More so than other divisions??
Really?? I thought 147 and 135 were the two strongest divisions in boxing right now, much higher then Mijares weight. Perhaps i am wrong??

130, 135 and 147 are very good and deep divisions, where did I dispute that? I said the smaller ones are packed with talent. One thing doesn't eliminate the other. And you just added divisions that are on the lower half of the middle.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Because he was so thoroughly dominated. Which proves a massive style disadvantage, not a "bad performance". Look at any time a fighter gets dominanted in that fashion. Pac v Mab for instance. Whilst no doubt he can come back, it would most likely be very difficult and unlikely.

Physically and psychologically that would have been a very taxing fight for Mijares.

I don't see any style disadvantage at all in this fight. Mijares was simply poor against Vic, not due to Vic. You know it is possible to have a bad fight, and a lacking gameplan. Barrera lost to a fighter that showed incredible speed and punch output. Mijares lost because he stood still, and boxed on the premise of Vic.

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Mijares resume is really not that much deeper than Lacy's though. There are no elite fighters on either one.

Lacy had definitely beaten faster fighters... What about Syd Vanderpool or especially Omar Sheika???

The difference is the caliber of the fighter in that instance.

in your comparison, it is largely invalid because you have placed two guys side by side in Vic and Arce who are different fighters all together. Arce a swarming pressure fighter, Vic a boxer puncher, more so a puncher but still a different mold of fighter.

If this were not so, why would he have so much trouble with one and be so dominant against the other??

Syd and Sheika at that point were nothing more than c+ lvl fighters. Mijares resume is not incredible but it is far beyond Lacys. This cannot be disputed.

Vic is a poor version of a boxer-puncher. A boxer-puncher is a well-rounded fighter who is able to box at range. Vic is more like a puncher/slugger/swarmer or whatever you want to call it - it would take the same abilities to beat him, that it does to beat Arce; speed, defensive prowess and range.

[MSTR]

Originally Posted by DanePugilist

Being technical has little to do with the pace you can fight. Having speed is an aspect of a technical ability as much as natural ability.

It has something to do with how well rounded you are and how technical correct you fight. Every division is relative in pace and power. Saying that a heavy weight can't be a technical fighter, simply because he is slower than a flyweight, I don't agree with that.

No, but the heavier weights can't put combinations together the same way, can't move as freely defensively due to their size, can't take the same punches from their opponents, can't maintain such a high pace. All those things definitely effect their technical ability. I can't believe you can't see that, i'm baffled.

Look at the middleweight division collectively. Then look at the 115 pound division. The difference is incredible. Overall, the smaller guys have the far slicker skills, both offensively and defensively, because their physical attributes allow them to fight this way with greater ease. Guys like Jose Navarro for instance have awesome skills, even though he is really only a B fighter at most. Skill wise, the way he puts his punches together, the upper body movement he shows, his overall ring generalmanship is better than almost all the top guys at middleweight. That to me says a lot about what a difference the weight makes.

If you want to go to extremes look at the Heavies. You have guys like Sam Peter and Maskaev at the upper end of the division. Techincally these guys are woeful, yet they can compete well in their division, because none of the bigger guys can really fight with as much precision as the lower divisons can. Can you imagine someone at heavy with skills like Mijares. It would be ridiculous, big guys just simply cannot move like that.

If you can't see that, please lets just agree to disagree, we simply will not be getting anywhere otherwise.

Many believe that Welter or Middleweight are those divisions where most abilities comes together, where speed and power are optimal. And therefore it gets the most attention.

That means that you get a good blend of speed and power, not the most of either. This is from a fans perspective, not talking about which division has the most skilled fighters. Another point raised that to me isn't relevant.

Pavlik isn't a technical fighter, simply because he is crude as hell. AA isn't wellrounded - he has a very good defensive game, and carries alot of one-punch power.

These guys arent crude though for their respective division. If they were, they wouldn't be the dominant guys now, would they? You have to look at things in comparison to their respective division, something you clearly are not doing.

I don't agree with what you are saying here, Mijares is well rounded no matter what division he fights in. However, he lacks power even at his division, and would do even more so the higher he rose. Yes, the version we saw against Vic, shouldn't be in top 20 p4p. Nor should Vic. Btw I have never said Mijares is the best H2H or even P4P(never even crossed the top 7 mark for me p4p).

My initial post though, was saying that i never rated him as high as Amsterdam and others who though he was the best h2h, p4p fighter in the sport. You chose to disagree with me. NOw you are saying that you personally don't rate him that high. Why bother disagreeing then??

Yes, their speed and in the case of Mijares his well-rounded game. They are faster than those at their own division, which in themselves are the fastest of the lot. Yet, again - I have never called Mijares a godly fighter, that is someone else. I admire him for being so good at different things, except for the power part. Sadly he also lacked in the mental/focus area against Vic - and like Gamboa he seems to suffer from being arrogant.

What point are you making?? I said i rate Mijares as a very good fighter. Just not quite as high as others. I think you have lost sight of what you were initially tryign to achieve here.

Gamboa has incredible natural abilities just like Roy. However, he is too confident of himself, and still has alot to work on. So far he has faced better opposition than Roy did with the same number of fights. It is harder to excel with better competition. But comparing him to one of the best ever, is not really fair. Yet again, I have never called Gamboa godly - this is again another poster. And we seem to view him much the same way, really.

Once again, MY POST was directed at those who thought he was godly, i made that quite clear. You chose to disagree with me, but now have turned around and said you never saw him that way either. What you are effectively doing without realising, is just agreeing with my post. I said that he is a very good fighter, who will most likely be an elite guy in the sport. To be godly though, he should be compared to guys like Roy obviously... A lot of this post from you has totally lost all relevance to what we were initally discussing. You are trying to now defend your personal point of view, which i never even knew, yet alone disagreed with. I simply stated i didn't think Gamboa was going to be the next top 50 ATG of the sport...

I was uncertain what point you were trying to make, as in if we felt that Mijares with his abilities could just move up several weight classes and dominate - and therefore had him very high p4p or even h2h. I just refuted that. If I misinterpreted your point, then disregard.

Disregarded!

Again, a point to prove that some fighters have what it takes to rank highly, when comparing them H2H or P4P with other fighters, simply because they don't lose their quality when moving up or down. Wasn't your point that we are bedazzled by the small fighters speed and therefore their quality due to nimbleness, thus ranking them above where we should(according to you)?

Your comparing a small move in divisions, to the difference between 115 to 160??? Surely you can't be serious. The ficticious match ups i was talking about, where h2h and p4p match ups with a mile of weight difference. Keeping their qualities while moving a couple of divisions, once again has NO RELEVANCE.

130, 135 and 147 are very good and deep divisions, where did I dispute that? I said the smaller ones are packed with talent. One thing doesn't eliminate the other. And you just added divisions that are on the lower half of the middle.

You said though the lower divisions get more attention because there are better fighters there. 115 how ever isn't as deep as other divisions in boxing. 168 is also a very deep division. 147 the deepest in boxing. Both these divisions much higher than 115. Your point here is totally lost.

I don't see any style disadvantage at all in this fight. Mijares was simply poor against Vic, not due to Vic. You know it is possible to have a bad fight, and a lacking gameplan. Barrera lost to a fighter that showed incredible speed and punch output. Mijares lost because he stood still, and boxed on the premise of Vic.

This last part is just silly to me, but i will respond anyway. How can you not see a style disadvantage, when a top level fighter gets absolutely dominated another world class fighter? You think it is nothing to do with Vic. That is just completely absurd. If that is what you think, agree to disagree here. Barerra lost to a guy who was a terrible style match up, hence the manner of the victory. Not because Pac is a different caliber of fighter.

It is the same thing here. Some of the stuff in this post i really have trouble relating to. especially the first and last points, i woudl prefer just to leave those, your entitled to your opinion, i simply don't agree.

[Sir Amsterdam]

DanePug vs. Anybody is always entertaining to me.

[MSTR]

Originally Posted by DanePugilist

Syd and Sheika at that point were nothing more than c+ lvl fighters. Mijares resume is not incredible but it is far beyond Lacys. This cannot be disputed.

Vic is a poor version of a boxer-puncher. A boxer-puncher is a well-rounded fighter who is able to box at range. Vic is more like a puncher/slugger/swarmer or whatever you want to call it - it would take the same abilities to beat him, that it does to beat Arce; speed, defensive prowess and range.

I'm disputing it. Please explain how it is far beyond Lacy's.

Show me how (keeping in mind that losses at the latter end of his career still effect his overall resume) how his is so much deeper than Lacys?

How are the likes of Navarro, Arce, Munoz etc so much better than guys like Robin Reid, Scott Pemberton, Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool....

If this is undisputable, it must be a big difference.

Vic can box at range, its where he actually likes to fight. He isn't comfortable on the inside like a pressure fighter. He is more of a puncher than a boxer, but i already pointed that out. He is CERTAINLY not a swarmer, where did you come to that conclusion??

If you cant' see the style differences between him and Arce, once again agree to disagree.

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

No, but the heavier weights can't put combinations together the same way, can't move as freely defensively due to their size, can't take the same punches from their opponents, can't maintain such a high pace. All those things definitely effect their technical ability. I can't believe you can't see that, i'm baffled.

Again, it seems like you take a different approach to this. It seems the problem is at your end. Not mine. You find nimble fighters more impressive, due to the speed they are performing - yet you attack those people who are like you bedazzeled with their speed, and ergo place them very highly p4p, h2h. That a HW can't move like a spring chicken is both irrelevant and has little to do with their technical ability.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Look at the middleweight division collectively. Then look at the 115 pound division. The difference is incredible. Overall, the smaller guys have the far slicker skills, both offensively and defensively, because their physical attributes allow them to fight this way with greater ease. Guys like Jose Navarro for instance have awesome skills, even though he is really only a B fighter at most. Skill wise, the way he puts his punches together, the upper body movement he shows, his overall ring generalmanship is better than almost all the top guys at middleweight. That to me says a lot about what a difference the weight makes.

Same answer as above.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

If you want to go to extremes look at the Heavies. You have guys like Sam Peter and Maskaev at the upper end of the division. Techincally these guys are woeful, yet they can compete well in their division, because none of the bigger guys can really fight with as much precision as the lower divisons can. Can you imagine someone at heavy with skills like Mijares. It would be ridiculous, big guys just simply cannot move like that.

If you can't see that, please lets just agree to disagree, we simply will not be getting anywhere otherwise.

You just chose 2 HWs that have no or little technical skill. Tyson, Holmes, Michael Spinks, Klitschko, Frazier, Cassius Clay all had alot of technical skills.

But lets move on - you seem to confuse nimbleness with technical ability.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

That means that you get a good blend of speed and power, not the most of either. This is from a fans perspective, not talking about which division has the most skilled fighters. Another point raised that to me isn't relevant.

Yes, this is the reason why people are drawn mostly towards these divisions, ergo seeing them as the top p4p'er. Also because it is easier to judge both in terms of h2h, and p4p. Not as you fear, those who are nimble.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

These guys arent crude though for their respective division. If they were, they wouldn't be the dominant guys now, would they? You have to look at things in comparison to their respective division, something you clearly are not doing.

Being crude of skill doesn't reflect on your ability to win. Many crude boxers have world titles. If it weren't like that then Cotto would never have lost to Margarito.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

My initial post though, was saying that i never rated him as high as Amsterdam and others who though he was the best h2h, p4p fighter in the sport. You chose to disagree with me. NOw you are saying that you personally don't rate him that high. Why bother disagreeing then??

I am not discussing godly or no godly nature - you said this in your initial post: "IMO one thing with these smaller fighters that gets grossely over rated in a p4p sense, is there ability to throw massive amounts of punches, and the speed that they throw with. Technically these guys are superb to watch, no question. What i think gets forgotten though is that if they were in higher weight classes, there is no way they could carry that speed or stamina with them. They would just be completely different fighters.One reason why i think trying to analyze fighters p4p and h2h is just completely absurd. It is literally impossible to do. The reason i bring this up, is that sometimes i think Mijares was getting over rated, as does Gamboa at time, because they naturally look to be superior with their speed and combination punching than fighters in the higher divisions, due to their smaller size. - thoughts".

So I am addressing those ideas that you have. You are "attacking" those who rank a fighter like Mijares very highly on p4p or h2h. Despite you, yourself thinks that he is very good and has slick skills, you find him to be overrated. Since I can only think of one who has said he was godly, while the most just thinks he is a very good fighter, I assumed that you are addressing those posters. I have tried to put your thoughts into perspective, only to find out that you really don't have one - or open to any. Either you had a point with your initial post, or else it got lost to you. You have tried to tell us that it is easy to be bedazzled by the technical skills shown at smaller weights, and therefore we rank them to highly. I have just disputed those facts, and you can't disagree with it, because you have lost your own point; nimble fighters tend to be set high on peoples p4p or h2h lists.

Your arguments are all over the place: 1) You think that Mijares is a very good fighter. 2) Yet you find his resume overrated. 3) You think that smaller weights show more technical ability, yet you attack others for thinking for thinking he is deserved of a p4p spot. 4) Nobody, incl. Amsterdam have never had him no. 1 p4p or h2h - yet you aim at those people in some of your initial post, and some of it that we rank him highly, but unlike you it is for the right reasons, as I have been trying to display to you. You seem think that we do it because we are bedazzled with their(his) technical bliss due to his small weight(which is your point entirely, not mine or any other I can think of). 5) You really attacking your own assessment, and in the same breathe you think that we rank him too highly compared to you.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

What point are you making?? I said i rate Mijares as a very good fighter. Just not quite as high as others. I think you have lost sight of what you were initially tryign to achieve here.

That everything is in regard to their given division. I am trying to tell you that we are not ranking Mijares on p4p or h2h rankings due to the fact that we think that the smaller weights are superior, because of your reasons stated in your posts. I am trying to tell you how p4p and h2hs are addressed.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Once again, MY POST was directed at those who thought he was godly, i made that quite clear. You chose to disagree with me, but now have turned around and said you never saw him that way either. What you are effectively doing without realising, is just agreeing with my post. I said that he is a very good fighter, who will most likely be an elite guy in the sport. To be godly though, he should be compared to guys like Roy obviously... A lot of this post from you has totally lost all relevance to what we were initally discussing. You are trying to now defend your personal point of view, which i never even knew, yet alone disagreed with. I simply stated i didn't think Gamboa was going to be the next top 50 ATG of the sport...

So by Godly you mean that he would obliterate any competition H2H and P4P? Name me one poster, who did this? You must have had a hidden agenda, because you included people, who thought more highly of him than seemingly you do. You thought it would be an easy crusade, because he just lost to a fighter everyone - incl you thought he would beat.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Your comparing a small move in divisions, to the difference between 115 to 160??? Surely you can't be serious. The ficticious match ups i was talking about, where h2h and p4p match ups with a mile of weight difference. Keeping their qualities while moving a couple of divisions, once again has NO RELEVANCE.

No I am not - I am saying that some fighters regardless of starting division don't lose their qualities by moving up in weight. And therefore are regarded highly in p4p/h2h lists. So I guess that you are really saying that a 115 pound fighter should never be ranked highly on these lists because the move to a middleground would be too severe? I think you are not only confused, but also lost.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

You said though the lower divisions get more attention because there are better fighters there. 115 how ever isn't as deep as other divisions in boxing. 168 is also a very deep division. 147 the deepest in boxing. Both these divisions much higher than 115. Your point here is totally lost.

I said they are packed with talent - and have alot of competitive matches. I also said that one thing doesn't eliminate the other. You just pulled out 2 divisions that people hold in high regard also, and then added 168. 115 doesn't represent the smaller weights alone, but all the way upto 135 is considered smaller weight.

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

This last part is just silly to me, but i will respond anyway. How can you not see a style disadvantage, when a top level fighter gets absolutely dominated another world class fighter? You think it is nothing to do with Vic. That is just completely absurd. If that is what you think, agree to disagree here. Barerra lost to a guy who was a terrible style match up, hence the manner of the victory. Not because Pac is a different caliber of fighter.

There was a style advantage for Pac, but not Vic. I laid out that Pacs speed and swarming was too much for Barrera. Vic had nothing that negated Mijares. Cristian had a bad fight - you are entitled to disagree with me, but saying that people only gets dominated due to stylistic disadvantage is beyond stupid.

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

It is the same thing here. Some of the stuff in this post i really have trouble relating to. especially the first and last points, i woudl prefer just to leave those, your entitled to your opinion, i simply don't agree.

Then don't agree - you don't have to. But at least try to pin down your initial thought coming into making a thread, and not try to make what you think is the reasons why are the reasons why people rank Mijares highly. Or else try to make your points clear.

I will stop here...

[smoochp]

Here we go again

[DanePugilist]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

I'm disputing it. Please explain how it is far beyond Lacy's.

Show me how (keeping in mind that losses at the latter end of his career still effect his overall resume) how his is so much deeper than Lacys?

How are the likes of Navarro, Arce, Munoz etc so much better than guys like Robin Reid, Scott Pemberton, Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool....

If this is undisputable, it must be a big difference.

Vic can box at range, its where he actually likes to fight. He isn't comfortable on the inside like a pressure fighter. He is more of a puncher than a boxer, but i already pointed that out. He is CERTAINLY not a swarmer, where did you come to that conclusion??

If you cant' see the style differences between him and Arce, once again agree to disagree.

I hope I don't have to explain to you the difference between fighters who are considered top 5 of their divisions and then people who were barely scratching top 10 at best. All of Lacys mentioned top competitions were faded versions of former selfs. So yes, big difference.

Boxer/Puncher
"A boxer-puncher is a well-rounded boxer who is able to fight at close range with a combination of technique and power, often with the ability to knock opponents out with a combination and in some instances a single shot." - Vic is by no means well-rounded.

Brawler/Slugger
"A brawler is a fighter who generally lacks finesse and footwork in the ring, but makes up for it through sheer punching power. Many brawlers tend to lack mobility, preferring a less mobile, more stable platform and have difficulty pursuing fighters who are fast on their feet." This is pretty much what Vic did.

Swarmer:
"In-fighters/swarmers (sometimes called "pressure fighters") attempt to stay close to an opponent, throwing intense flurries and combinations of hooks and uppercuts." - granted he doesn't throw flurries, but all he threw were hooks and uppercuts...

I say he is a combo of these three things. Jack of all trades - master of none.

Arce and Vic does not fight the same way, but it takes the same abilities(as stated) to beat him. Or one who does what he does better.

[cardstars]

Originally Posted by Mad about Boxing

Same goes with Gamboa. If he were this boxing god he has been made out to be, he wouldn't be getting dropped and looking so uncomfortable against guys that are less than top level. He has a tonne of potential, and will most likely be an elite fighter, but to be "godly" is an entirely different story.

If I have called him Godly before I would like to clarify. I think his offensive abilities are Godly. Thats all

edit*: one last thing: I think Gamboas opponents are better than the guys you listed off (for how early it is in his career). He is being rushed, which is bringing out all of his flaws in a big way.

[MSTR]

I will post a reply in the morning.

99% of that stuff is just complete crap. I honestly struggle to see how you are even forming these arguements/opinions.

Still, i'll take the time to respond tomorrow.