Some questions for you guys about Pernell Whitaker

[McGrain]

Don't feel like you have to answer all of them, one answer is just as appreciated!

1 - Is there a "class" above Sweet Pea in terms of overall ability? Is he in the absolute highest class of boxer?

2 - How do you rate him as a composite puncher?

3 - Do you rate him as a bodypuncher?

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

5 - Is he now underated offensively? People are always roaring about his defensive abilities, has this led to a general underating of his attacking skills?

6 - Who do you pick to beat him peak for peak at 135 and 140?

7 - What were his 3 best performances (as distinct from his 3 best wins)

[Brooklyn1550]

1 - Is there a "class" above Sweet Pea in terms of overall ability? Is he in the absolute highest class of boxer?

Yes, I think he's at the highest class you can possibly get. Of course there are others who fit right along side him in that category, but a higher category? Nah.

2 - How do you rate him as a composite puncher?

Not one of the highest echelon composite punchers, but very, very good. Crisp, snappy punches, beautiful combinations, and had the ability to throw short punches in close.

3 - Do you rate him as a bodypuncher?

Very highly. He had some top-notch body punching displays. I think that this facet of his game goes unnoticed by some people, and if not unnoticed, certainly underrated.

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

One of the best in history, maybe the best. Off the backfoot, there hasn't been a better jabber IMO.

5 - Is he now underated offensively? People are always roaring about his defensive abilities, has this led to a general underating of his attacking skills?

Yes, I think he's underrated offensively by a lot of people. Educated fans, like all of us here, realize he was a fabulous offensive fighter though. Despite being so great defensively, he kept a high punch output, especially at lightweight. His biggest knock offensively was power, but regardless, he had those snappy, quick shots you didn't see coming. And like the saying goes, those are the punches that hurt you (as Juan Nazario and Louie Lomeli found out pretty brutally). Whitaker could throw every punch in the book.

6 - Who do you pick to beat him peak for peak at 135 and 140?

At 135, I think he's the top fighter head to head in history. He's 1a and Duran is 1b. At 140, I'd pick Duran over him and Jose Napoles would make for a toss-up fight between two fistic geniuses. Aaron Pryor would have a chance, but I favor Whitaker, somewhere around 60/40. Benitez would be a great tactical chess match, and I favor Whitaker at 140, but most definitely not overwhelmingly. I think he clearly beats Chavez, Williams, Ortiz, Armstrong, Mayweather, Jack, Locche, and Arguello. Am I missing anybody?

7 - What were his 3 best performances (as distinct from his 3 best wins)

IMO, his three best performances just going based on how he looked, as distinct from his 3 best wins and disregarding the lower-level fighters he faced on the way up, were against Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez in their second fight, and Greg Haugen. If we're going by his 3 best wins, I'd say Chavez (fuck the final verdict), Nelson, and McGirt I. I feel tempted to put the Vasquez win in there just because he was so undersized and still managed to come away victorious.

[McGrain]

Brooklyn...that's a peach of a post. I agree with a lot of this, but I want to draw special attention to what you've said about Pernell as a bodypuncher. I've been looking at him again lately - I think he was a genuinely great bodypuncher.

Anyway, great post. Eddie Perkins might be an interesting challenge for Whitaker at 140.

I'm off to bed.

[jecxbox]

Originally Posted by brooklyn1550

1 - Is there a "class" above Sweet Pea in terms of overall ability? Is he in the absolute highest class of boxer?

Yes, I think he's at the highest class you can possibly get. Of course there are others who fit right along side him in that category, but a higher category? Nah.

2 - How do you rate him as a composite puncher?

Not one of the highest echelon composite punchers, but very, very good. Crisp, snappy punches, beautiful combinations, and had the ability to throw short punches in close.

3 - Do you rate him as a bodypuncher?

Very highly. He had some top-notch body punching displays. I think that this facet of his game goes unnoticed by some people, and if not unnoticed, certainly underrated.

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

One of the best in history, maybe the best. Off the backfoot, there hasn't been a better jabber IMO.

5 - Is he now underated offensively? People are always roaring about his defensive abilities, has this led to a general underating of his attacking skills?

Yes, I think he's underrated offensively by a lot of people. Educated fans, like all of us here, realize he was a fabulous offensive fighter though. Despite being so great defensively, he kept a high punch output, especially at lightweight. His biggest knock offensively was power, but regardless, he had those snappy, quick shots you didn't see coming. And like the saying goes, those are the punches that hurt you (as Juan Nazario and Louie Lomeli found out pretty brutally). Whitaker could throw every punch in the book.

6 - Who do you pick to beat him peak for peak at 135 and 140?

At 135, I think he's the top fighter head to head in history. He's 1a and Duran is 1b. At 140, I'd pick Duran over him and Jose Napoles would make for a toss-up fight between two fistic geniuses. Aaron Pryor would have a chance, but I favor Whitaker, somewhere around 60/40. Benitez would be a great tactical chess match, and I favor Whitaker at 140, but most definitely not overwhelmingly. I think he clearly beats Chavez, Williams, Ortiz, Armstrong, Mayweather, Jack, Locche, and Arguello. Am I missing anybody?

7 - What were his 3 best performances (as distinct from his 3 best wins)

IMO, his three best performances just going based on how he looked, as distinct from his 3 best wins and disregarding the lower-level fighters he faced on the way up, were against Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez in their second fight, and Greg Haugen. If we're going by his 3 best wins, I'd say Chavez (fuck the final verdict), Nelson, and McGirt I. I feel tempted to put the Vasquez win in there just because he was so undersized and still managed to come away victorious.

This is great stuff Brooklyn , and nice thread McGrain!

[Illmatic]

1 - Is there a "class" above Sweet Pea in terms of overall ability? Is he in the absolute highest class of boxer?

He;s definitely up there. I would say he is.

2 - How do you rate him as a composite puncher?

Underrated puncher. He could punch with speed and with power if he so needed it. He couldnt hurt many world-class fighters at 140+, but when he wanted to put it on, he could.

3 - Do you rate him as a bodypuncher?

Very good, placed his punches beautifully. Uppercuts and hooks to the body.

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

It seemed like he used it a lot to bait people in so that he could counter b/c many times he would throw it slowly and then counter the return. Very good jab, although I wouldn't place it in any ATG-jab list.

5 - Is he now underated offensively? People are always roaring about his defensive abilities, has this led to a general underating of his attacking skills?

Offensively he was underrated b/c of mediocre power, but he was so accurate with his punches and knew when to put some power, when to put some speed and when to use his punches to bait an opponent in.

6 - Who do you pick to beat him peak for peak at 135 and 140?

NO ONE. Im serious. Best contenders: Duran, Armstrong, Arguello.

7 - What were his 3 best performances (as distinct from his 3 best wins)

In no particular order.

1. Nelson- he made an ATG looked remarkably ordinary.
2. Chavez- he did it all. Jabbed, flurried, brawled at points, and.....he fought dirty showing a lot of tricks. It was amazing his comfort level in the ring. He had a ruthless animal in front of him but was cognizant enough to throw a low blow when the ref walked behind chavez. I counted something like 9 low blows and he was only caught for one.
3. Jose Luis Ramirez II- He TOYED with JLR. He did some amazing things in there that I doubt I will ever again see again.

[DanePugilist]

Very good insights on Sweet Pea.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm going to repeat a lot of what Brook and Ill say here, but here goes:


1 - Is there a "class" above Sweet Pea in terms of overall ability? Is he in the absolute highest class of boxer?

There are facets of boxing for which Pernell is not at the highest echelon (e.g. power, chin, finishing off a hurt fighter), but in terms of an overall package, he is the bees knees.

2 - How do you rate him as a composite puncher?

What does composite puncher mean? As in ability to throw a lot of diverse punches? He is one of the most offensively creative fighters ever. He turns jabs into hooks, hooks into uppercuts and straight punches into hooks. Very fluid and can throw great combinations though they weren't always his foundation.

Does composite mean ability to interweave the use of both hands? Well, he's actually ambidextrous, let's just leave it at that.

3 - Do you rate him as a bodypuncher?

As far as technique and variety goes, up with the best of the best. He beat Julio Cesar Chavez to the body. Is there any greater compliment for a body puncher?

He doesn't have the power that a lot of body punchers do, or the strength to sustain an attack to the body for a whole fight against a bull like fighter like Chavez, but when he chooses to reside there, he hangs with ANYBODY.

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

Again, not the most powerful (or the quickest), but as far as technique and variety goes, it's clearly top shelf. Sneakiest jab of all time,

5 - Is he now underated offensively? People are always roaring about his defensive abilities, has this led to a general underating of his attacking skills?

His lack of power downgrades his offensive ability, but he could rat-a-tat a fighter all night long and he had a great punch output, especially at lightweight. I mean, he hit Azumah Nelson with near 500 punches. Most guys in boxing don't even throw that amount of punches.

6 - Who do you pick to beat him peak for peak at 135 and 140?

Duran would be the one I'm most confident in, and I'd probably favour Armstrong slightly as well. Other than that, I wouldn't favour anyone to beat him, though I'm sure quite a few would.

7 - What were his 3 best performances (as distinct from his 3 best wins)

He was at his sharpest against Nelson, Ramirez in the rematch and Haugen. Probably the three best boxing displays we have on film at the weight. Pure masterclasses.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

4 - How highly do you rate his jab?

It seemed like he used it a lot to bait people in so that he could counter b/c many times he would throw it slowly and then counter the return. Very good jab, although I wouldn't place it in any ATG-jab list.

I think you need to watch more of him. You have the wrong impressions about his jab here. It was often the main part of his offensive arsenal and his main use of scoring points. Hardly a baiting jab, even if he could counter off of it.

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

I think you need to watch more of him. You have the wrong impressions about his jab here. It was often the main part of his offensive arsenal and his main use of scoring points. Hardly a baiting jab, even if he could counter off of it.

What Im getting at is that he didnt throw it with full speed all the time. Like Quartey for instance, you always got that thudding jab. Whitaker would throw a fast, snapping jab, and then he would throw slower jabs and when opponents threw a counter, would duck/slip and land shots with some power. He didnt have one type of jab.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

What Im getting at is that he didnt throw it with full speed all the time. Like Quartey for instance, you always got that thudding jab. Whitaker would throw a fast, snapping jab, and then he would throw slower jabs and when opponents threw a counter, would duck/slip and land shots with some power. He didnt have one type of jab.

If anything that should give his jab versatility points over a guy like Quartey, who had a very effective, but one-paced jab. Whitaker could slip his jab in between an opponent's guard, go underneath, over the top, to the body, always with accuracy. Quartey's jab was like a hammer, but not as accurate or versatile. Pea did probe his jab out there every now and then to counter off of, but not typically, it's not like he was a Duran type in that sense. His jab was his main weapon.

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

If anything that should give his jab versatility points over a guy like Quartey, who had a very effective, but one-paced jab. Whitaker could slip his jab in between an opponent's guard, go underneath, over the top, to the body, always with accuracy. Quartey's jab was like a hammer, but not as accurate or versatile. Pea did probe his jab out there every now and then to counter off of, but not typically, it's not like he was a Duran type in that sense. His jab was his main weapon.

I was giving him versatility points. The only reason I didnt put it as an ATG jab was b/c he didnt have a jab with a lot of power, but hey, that wasn't his game.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

I was giving him versatility points. The only reason I didnt put it as an ATG jab was b/c he didnt have a jab with a lot of power, but hey, that wasn't his game.

Do you not consider him an ATG because he didn't have a lot of power?

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Do you not consider him an ATG because he didn't have a lot of power?

You are taking everything out of context. Re-read my posts.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

You are taking everything out of context. Re-read my posts.

Nothing was taken out of context. You said his jab is not among the great jabs because of the lack of power in it. Does that mean he's also not among the greats because of his lack of power in general? There's more to it than that, and there was more to his jab than power. Certain guys like Quartey, who had a more powerful jab, didn't have a jab that was nearly as versatile. It's all about efficiency.

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Nothing was taken out of context. You said his jab is not among the great jabs because of the lack of power in it. Does that mean he's also not among the greats because of his lack of power in general? There's more to it than that, and there was more to his jab than power. Certain guys like Quartey, who had a more powerful jab, didn't have a jab that was nearly as versatile. It's all about efficiency.

I should've known you would've been touchy about Whitaker. Whitaker is a bonafide great despite not having great power, although it was more respectable than many make it seem. This was never in dispute. As I said earlier, I think he's the greatest lightweight of all time.

Maxie Rosenbloom made Whitaker look like Tyson, but he's still an atg.

When I think ATG jabs, I think boxers who can debilitate opponents with it.