Paul Williams takes Mijares spot in top 10 p4p.

[sues2nd]

Originally Posted by smoochp

My opinion and I'm sticking with it. Dawson, Vic, and maybe Williams would be in P4P list.

I can agree with Dawson or Williams definately.

Vic, definately not...3-1-1 in his last five, and the only fighter among them that even sniffs the top ten is Mijares (soon Donaire probably...but give him time)...and it would be the bottom part of the top ten.

Cant see him in the top ten at all.

[kg0208]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

Exactly and again, Calderon doesn't belong in the top 10, he's beaten nobody even in the B+ area, size considered.

Dawson deserves to be there, Vic also deserves to be ahead of Paul Williams. Winning the Undisputed Championship against a stellar opponent by way of domination and brutal KO is better than anything Paul Williams has come close to doing.

I say give Dawson a spot 8-10 and give Vic Calderon's spot. It's a travesty to have Calderon in there, but not even any consideration for the new 115 pound Undisputed champion, who won the IBF by brutal domination and the WBA/WBC against a then P4P ranked Mijares by brutal domination. You've got to be fucking kidding me if Calderon is said to have done more than that!

Calderon is in my top 10 and will stay there until I see a drop in his ability or until he loses. I agree with his position.

[Brooklyn1550]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

What about Vic?

He has the KO loss, but that's to a better opponent than Carlos Quintana and has recently just steamrolled his way to Undisputed Championship status against one good fighter and one great fighter.

This is silly to not even consider him for the top 10 after he just decimated a top 7 ranked opponent.

Before they came out with Williams at the 10 spot, I was pretty confident that it was going to be Darchinyan taking over for Mijares, and if not that, than Chad Dawson. But I'm not going to worry much about the Ring ratings. I value our (meaning everybody at MBF) lists more than the GBP owned magazine. Remember when they had Ricky Hatton well in the top 10 even after the Collazo and Urango performances?

There's really about 12 or 13 guys, who deserve serious consideration for a spot in the top 10. Let's say 7 spots are locked in, so that leaves what? 5 or 6 competing for the final 3.

Do you have a top 10 at the moment?

[kg0208]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

What about Vic?

He has the KO loss, but that's to a better opponent than Carlos Quintana and has recently just steamrolled his way to Undisputed Championship status against one good fighter and one great fighter.

This is silly to not even consider him for the top 10 after he just decimated a top 7 ranked opponent.

Didn't you argue against Margarito being in the top 10 after beating Cotto?

I'm not sure on this, but I thought I saw you argue that putting him in the top 10 was overrating him.

[smoochp]

Originally Posted by sues2nd

I can agree with Dawson or Williams definately.

Vic, definately not...3-1-1 in his last five, and the only fighter among them that even sniffs the top ten is Mijares (soon Donaire probably...but give him time)...and it would be the bottom part of the top ten.

Cant see him in the top ten at all.

We will also agree to disagree but I think he belongs and deserves it. Mirajes was up there on the list just like Cotto. Then they put Margo in the Top 10 when he wasn't event in the top 15

[Brooklyn1550]

From what I've read, Darchinyan clearly beat Z Gorres and was shafted by the judges and the referee on two instances.

[Sir Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by kg0208

Didn't you argue against Margarito being in the top 10 after beating Cotto?

I'm not sure on this, but I thought I saw you argue that putting him in the top 10 was overrating him.

Marg didn't decimate Cotto however. If Vic was losing the fight up until the 9th but started wearing Mijares down gradually and then sparked him I wouldn't consider that. But he dominated every aspect of the fight and then sparked him, winning the Undisputed Championship.

I judge on how impressively fights are won as much as the victory itself, everybody should.

[acb_]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

Exactly and again, Calderon doesn't belong in the top 10, he's beaten nobody even in the B+ area, size considered.

Dawson deserves to be there, Vic also deserves to be ahead of Paul Williams. Winning the Undisputed Championship against a stellar opponent by way of domination and brutal KO is better than anything Paul Williams has come close to doing.

I say give Dawson a spot 8-10 and give Vic Calderon's spot. It's a travesty to have Calderon in there, but not even any consideration for the new 115 pound Undisputed champion, who won the IBF by brutal domination and the WBA/WBC against a then P4P ranked Mijares by brutal domination. You've got to be fucking kidding me if Calderon is said to have done more than that!

How do you feel about Calderon, out of curiosity?

[Sir Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by brooklyn1550

Before they came out with Williams at the 10 spot, I was pretty confident that it was going to be Darchinyan taking over for Mijares, and if not that, than Chad Dawson. But I'm not going to worry much about the Ring ratings. I value our (meaning everybody at MBF) lists more than the GBP owned magazine. Remember when they had Ricky Hatton well in the top 10 even after the Collazo and Urango performances?

There's really about 12 or 13 guys, who deserve serious consideration for a spot in the top 10. Let's say 7 spots are locked in, so that leaves what? 5 or 6 competing for the final 3.

Do you have a top 10 at the moment?

1. Pac
2. Calzaghe
3. JMM
4. Hopkins
5. Vasquez
6. Dawson
7. R. Marquez
8. Vic Darchinyan
9. Margarito
10. Mikkel Kessler

This is off the top of my head. Margarito does make it, but at a reasonable #9, I'm able to justify Dawson very high due to the Adamek-Johnson-Tarver string of victories and his general impressiveness.

Marquez was very close to Vasquez, but lost both, so #7. Hopkins at 4 for having a competitive fight with the #2 and dominating Pavlik so well.

Vic in Mijares' spot, obviously, he dominated and brutally stopped him.

Kessler at #10 for general impressiveness/h2h and solid resume, also competitive with the #2.

Evident necessary removal is Ivan Calderon for fighting nobody of worth due to those divisions being horrible and for recent unimpressive showings against that shit quality of opposition, as well as a serious lack of H2H ability IMO. The next of course is Williams, who doesn't belong there yet and then Cotto removed, but still in the 11-14 area.

[kg0208]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

Marg didn't decimate Cotto however. If Vic was losing the fight up until the 9th but started wearing Mijares down gradually and then sparked him I wouldn't consider that. But he dominated every aspect of the fight and then sparked him, winning the Undisputed Championship.

I judge on how impressively fights are won as much as the victory itself, everybody should.

It could be argued that Cotto was a better fighter than Mijares. He was certainly more proven than Mijares at the top level. Therefore, the win itself is more impressive.

As for judging on how impressively someone wins? No....and you're proving why right now. That can only be done when there is a huge difference in the performance in comparison. In this case, Margarito's style is one that wears a fighter down and it's the cumulative effect that is impressive, or basically the sum of the damage, not how he got there. His win over Cotto and the way he did it was extremely impressive. To watch a top level champion steadily be beaten into submission while giving his best effort? No, that is astounding and should be viewed as such.

My point? It's far too subjective. Certain styles would be penalized greatly in comparison to others if that also becomes a factor in something that is already extremely subjective.

[Sir Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by kg0208

It could be argued that Cotto was a better fighter than Mijares. He was certainly more proven than Mijares at the top level.

As for judging on how impressively someone wins? No....and you're proving why right now. That can only be done when there is a huge difference in the performance in comparison. In this case, Margarito's style is one that wears a fighter down and it's the cumulative effect that is impressive, or basically the sum of the damage, not how he got there. His win over Cotto and the way he did it was extremely impressive. To watch a top level champion steadily be beaten into submission while giving his best effort? No, that is astounding and should be viewed as such.

My point? It's far too subjective. Certain styles would be penalized greatly in comparison to others if that also becomes a factor in something that is already extremely subjective.

I'm not penalizing the style, Margarito was soundly outboxed for 7-8 rounds and was getting shredded by combinations, which he could impressively endure like a man made out of iron... but still.

Let me repeat, had he gone in there and dominated Cotto from the start, which pressure fighters CAN do by the way in the process of wearing him down and wasn't completely outboxed for that amount of rounds, it would be a different story. Take Cintron for example, Marg went in there and decimated him twice in both fights, thats because Cintron is a lesser fighter, but it's still a showcase of his come forward style that breaks the opponent into submission, only against a lesser fighter it worked from the start.

Against a superior fighter, he was schooling for the first half of the fight, very badly I might add.

So this does have relevance here. I'm not penalizing styles, I'm penalizing performance differences.

[kg0208]

Originally Posted by Sir Amsterdam

I'm not penalizing the style, Margarito was soundly outboxed for 7-8 rounds and was getting shredded by combinations, which he could impressively endure like a man made out of iron... but still.

Let me repeat, had he gone in there and dominated Cotto from the start, which pressure fighters CAN do by the way in the process of wearing him down and wasn't completely outboxed for that amount of rounds, it would be a different story. Take Cintron for example, Marg went in there and decimated him twice in both fights, thats because Cintron is a lesser fighter, but it's still a showcase of his come forward style that breaks the opponent into submission, only against a lesser fighter it worked from the start.

Against a superior fighter, he was schooling for the first half of the fight, very badly I might add.

So this does have relevance here. I'm not penalizing styles, I'm penalizing performance differences.

You are penalizing his style. Anyone who watched that fight could tell that Margarito was having the desired effect from round 3 on. It was obvious. He was fighting his fight and dictating the pace of the fight. He was CONTROLLING the fight. He was being outboxed because he wasn't boxing. Cotto was winning rounds but being outfought. So IMO, you are penalizing the style and not taking into account the context of the fight.

Impressiveness is relative to what you're looking for and consider impressive. There is absolutely no way to argue against Margarito being in the top 10 after stopping Cotto, but arguing for Darchinyan being in the top 10 after stopping Mijares IMO.

[acb_]

Originally Posted by kg0208

You are penalizing his style. Anyone who watched that fight could tell that Margarito was having the desired effect from round 3 on. It was obvious. He was fighting his fight and dictating the pace of the fight. He was CONTROLLING the fight. He was being outboxed because he wasn't boxing. Cotto was winning rounds but being outfought. So IMO, you are penalizing the style and not taking into account the context of the fight.

Impressiveness is relative to what you're looking for and consider impressive.

Absolutely. The body shots were wearing from very early. He was pushing him backward. He is the body puncher, the body puncher's game is always to invest early for the late payoff.

[Benny Blanco]

Amsterdam you can't possibly believe with all things considered that Mijares is better than Cotto.

[Sir Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by kg0208

You are penalizing his style. Anyone who watched that fight could tell that Margarito was having the desired effect from round 3 on. It was obvious. He was fighting his fight and dictating the pace of the fight. He was CONTROLLING the fight. He was being outboxed because he wasn't boxing. Cotto was winning rounds but being outfought. So IMO, you are penalizing the style and not taking into account the context of the fight.

Impressiveness is relative to what you're looking for and consider impressive. There is absolutely no way to argue against Margarito being in the top 10 after stopping Cotto, but arguing for Darchinyan being in the top 10 after stopping Mijares IMO.

He was still ridiculously outboxed for over half of the fight, that's a penalization of the performance, not the style, no matter how you twist it.

Now let's go back what I did initially say, that Margarito in the top 10 was fine, but not as high as 6, more like 8-10, with Cotto removed. Do you have a problem with that?

And my current stance on Darchinyan is that he should be from 8-10 also, where Mijares was.

I never said it was absurd to place Marg top 10, just as high as 5 or 6.

Now, it is totally absurd to place Calderon in the top 10, definitely, if looking at things objectively in comparison to other fighters that are also in contention, but I can live with him being top 15.