Hopkins, "back in the envelope" quicker and better than any fighter, ever - a ramble

[McGrain]

Maybe you guys can help me iron out my thinking a bit on this one, I was looking at my chat with Sues2nd in the thread I started about Bernard's all time great standing and got thinking about this.

In a nutshell, what I want to say is this - Hopkins gets back into his defensive envelope quicker and better than any fighter ever, after he has thrown. In fact sometimes he is in the envelope whilst he throws. Here's a highlights thing for Hopkins (a really good one actually):

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Check out 45 secs and the replay right after it. Hopkins throws a jab which comes up short, and perhaps because he misses, he comes in chin down, throws a monster uppercut which connects (KO). But because he's come in reaching a little bit, and because he missed (I think) he pushes his man, puts him off balance. And when he is throwing, jab and uppercut, his chin is down, down, down. So whilst throwing, even whilst throwing, he's putting himself back in the envelope, making sure it is as hard as possible for his man to throw back, chin protected, and more importantly, keeping his man way off balance.

In the next action, Hopkins is rushing a bit again with a two-handed combo. Again, he's rushing and this isn't a defensive proccess, so he uses his feet to make himself unhittable - he actually ends up unhittable, behind his man, and perfectly balanced. He then spins his man (not actually legal) into the ropes where he perches off balance (balance again). When B-Hop has his guy off balance, he takes more risks than normal, and so he really pours it on here, but it's interesting when a desperate hook is thrown his way Hopkins ends up at total range - at step in and jab range. Unreal.

What impresses me the most is that Hopkins gets back into what i'm calling the envelope (dunno why, that's just what watching him makes me think about) so very quickly and correctly. Sues2nd made a point to me about Hopkins combined attributes being in excess of almsot anyone elses on occasion even if another fighter has him outstripped in any one given department - here it is again. Ken Buchanan and Roy Jones both get back into the envelope more quickly. Throw, avoid, they do that more quickly. But they do it incorrectly. Big, fast, exaggerated movements, leaping about like a landed fish. Get caught, get timed, making these exaggerated defensive movements you will know you have been spoken to. Take Buchanan's exaggerated bending at the waist to ditch the jab. Jim Watt picked it out and gave him a horrible night.

What, in the Executioner's defensive work, you gonna pick out for countering? Nothing. Not one thing.

Last thing, then ramble/rant over. At 2.50, Hopkins is in with Trinidad. He is jabbing, going back to the ropes. He gets pinned on the ropes! He throws a picture perfect one-two. As soon as the second punch lands he is headed back to the envelope. Hopkins ducks under any incoming punch (There isn't one - he's hit his man to hard for that, but he avoids envelopes, a body check, any trouble at all that might slow him). He steps out of range, right hand high, and is out of range, chin down, back in the envelope before, BEFORE, Trinidad sticks out his jab. Just watch the exchanges that follow for fun, because that is boxing!

Anyway...that's me. You guys got any thoughts or observations about any of this and about B-Hop more generally?

[acb_]

Great post McGrain. Its all about positioning and angles with him, and its an apt observation that he does it before, during, and after throwing punches. And its hard to do this during punching also, because your balance has to compensate for trying to find him and protect yourself at the same time. Good video.

[sues2nd]

Great post, glad my comments are making such a dent in ya. LOL!



Its all in the footwork with Bernard tho. He is ALWAYS in the correct position...whether it be just out of harms way, or just close enough to put his opponent there. He is also forever giving the most awkward angles imaginable...making it impossible to go on offense correctly for the opponent. I absolutely LOVE how he NEVER moves into his opponents strength...take Sat. night for instance, Malinaggi constantly moved into Hatton's power...Hopkins on the other hand when fighting, say Trinidad, NEVER moves in the direction of the left hook...or when fighting Pavlik, never moved to the right hand. And in both instances, if you watch, when he did it was to bait and counter...and I still dont believe there has EVER been a better counter puncher (if there was, its close at the top as you said McGrain), something shown on full display in that video you posted.

Another thing, is the way he always has the chin in the correct position to not only absorb any shot that he might get hit with, but also when throwing a punch, to absorb any counter he could get hit with as well. Ive brought this up before, but I remember during the Calzaghe fight, Manny Steward kept saying Hopkins was looking at the ground when throwing every punch...LMAO! Its something so subtle (just like the footwork and angles thing) that most people dont even realize he is doing anything special at all...or like in Manny's case they dont realize WHAT he is doing.

I like the observation of him being so fast to get back in defensive position (envelope is actually a good way to put it). The great part about it is, because he is so astute at doing this, it leaves him in perfect position to counter (back to the footwork thing)...so not only does he get back to defend faster than anyone, but also allows him to switch to offense faster as well.

So if we are looking at a prime Hopkins, we have a fighter with very good power, very high workrate, amazing hand speed, perfect footwork, movement, use of angles and defensive technique, amazing accuracy and timing (and counter punching), a granite chin, an off the charts ring intellect and to top it off is also someone who fights dirty as hell, better than most in the history of the sport (almost make dirty fighting an artform). And some people think Im crazy for where I have him ranked in a H2H sense...and an all time sense as well. Ive said it once, I will say it again, PRIME Hopkins (entering it around the Johnson fight and going forward until around about Trinidad...tho he didnt lose it in most of these areas after Tito, just seem to gradually scale back on some of the more physical things...ie workrate, use of power, etc.) was one of the most perfect fighters I have ever seen. He had EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING he excelled in...the movement, the footwork, the defense, the timing, the accuracy, the counter punching ability, the ring intellect, the ring generalship, etc...you can argue being top 5 ever in any of them! Again, just about a perfect fighter...

Great post, McGrain....here is another great HL vid for ya. More recent footage mixed in...focuses alot on the defensive movement as well.

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BTW, I asked ya on another post about Bernard...but never got your input on it. Where do you have Bernard ranked in terms of defense, not only all time, but of this era as well?

[McGrain]

I know exactly what you mean about people just missing what Hopkins does best, there are times when I go to write/say something about him and it's gone, and I feel like I had something but I didn't know how to express it. It's because he renders his tangibles near intangible by way of subtlety and perfection/near perfection. I'm going to try to get one of these ideas out now.

Boxing is filled with what I call points of inflection - points where the fight changes because of a small move. IMO, what I call inflection points is a huge part of what makes boxing so special. It is why the tide can turn at any time and no fighter should ever be written off at the highest level. Hopkins, in my opinion, has near complete control over these inflection points. I came upon this idea watching Jones and Leonard fight. Jones and Leonard were so special. Even Duran rarely hit Leonard cleanly, real cleanly, because Leonard was so quick at turning and riding with the punch. WIthout soundint like a total geek, slow motion reveals this - Leonard is almost always turning on any outside shots that Duran throws. So he can move his face to lesten the impact, turn his body away, move his feet away with his sublime reactions, Jones too.

But in doing this, these fighters give up the inflection points. They are pushed away from control of the action, reacting, acting purely out of defence. Because they are so special athletically, they can then enforce an offencive plan on the opponent, reclaiming the initiative, or extract themselves alltogether, reseting any inflective advanatge. But when this inflection-nullyfying athletic ability betrayed Roy Jones deserted him, he was a shot fighter, almost immediatly, he was finished.

Hopkins longevity exsist specifically because of his inflection-control. Hopkins does not need to ride a punch because he is already in position to absorb/block/ditch it.

Even when his opponent is on offense and he is on defence, Hopkins is controlling the inflection point. He is already balanced, already set, already ready to decide the next action. This is what we mean when we say "counter-puncher", this is what we mean when we say "ring-general".

How do I rate him defensively? High. At the very top? Probably not. But to leave it there is to leave the sentence unfinished.

Bernard Hopkins' defence is also his offence. His defence helps him to conrol ring action. His defence - and when we say that we encompass a huge raft of ideas - is what helps him to conrol the fight.

When you said to me about two attributes combined being unmatched and I agreed that sparked part of this idea in me. I fell I understand him now, finally. His defence might not be primary clutch (or it might be), but his defence as conrolling initiative and inflection is absolutley unparalleled in the history of the sport.

In this rarefied air he is the definitive choice for #1, without peer, perhaps. Yes, your head to head ranking of him is justified. I feel that quite strongly now, even if I don't share it with the same conviction.

[Brooklyn1550]

Originally Posted by sues2nd

a granite chin

Despite what I'm about to say, I agree with you completely on this.

I watched the first Echols fight today. Hopkins was beating the living shit out of him in the 12th round, looking as if he was close to stopping him, when Echols delivered a perfectly timed right hand flush on Hopkins face. Hopkins almost went down and was rocked for a second, but recovered quickly enough to dominate the final 30 seconds of the fight. Echols wasn't highly skilled, but he had one hell of a punch. This brings me to another point. Even if you hurt Hopkins or stun him, his defense, survival tactics, mental toughness, and physical toughness make it just about impossible to stop him at middleweight or super middleweight.

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Great posts McGrain and Sues. Hopkins has so many subtleties to his game. In his prime, just an incredible all around fighter with a surplus of skills. I see nothing from any current young or up-and-comer that suggests to me they have Hopkins' variety of skills.

[McGrain]

Yeah, subtle, he's very hard to pin down even when you're not trying to beat him, just understand exactly what you are seeing!

I would dearly love to do a proper dissection, try to understand how he progressed, how his skills developed, through the years and fight. I think that would be very worthwhile. His growth and expansion as a general seems almost natural, but it's so accelarated. Maybe next year I will get to it.

[Brooklyn1550]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Yeah, subtle, he's very hard to pin down even when you're not trying to beat him, just understand exactly what you are seeing!

I would dearly love to do a proper dissection, try to understand how he progressed, how his skills developed, through the years and fight. I think that would be very worthwhile. His growth and expansion as a general seems almost natural, but it's so accelarated. Maybe next year I will get to it.

That would definitely be a time-consuming task. But the final product would be an incredible read.

[Brooklyn1550]

Switching gears here a little bit, but I've seen a lot of people who label Juan Manuel Marquez the best technical/all-around fighter in the sport at the moment. Not sure if that conclusion is made after taking into account Hopkins is past his prime or not, but even now, I don't see it at all. Marquez is one of my favorites, but he doesn't have the ring generalship, footwork, defense, or even technique of the current Hopkins. Perhaps his fighting stance is more textbook, but still, that doesn't mean it's better. Marquez also reaches with his punches more and throws wider shots more frequently.

[McGrain]

I agree with you Brooklyn, but I do think JMM is not fighting his natural fight any longer. I think he's become determined since the first fight with Pac and the subsequent financial disasters to push himself into becoming more offensive. I think that going back a little bit, Marquez's punches were a bit shorter and he was better balanced.

Not to say that he has neccesarily become a worse fighter for this offensive outlook. It's possible that the old Marquez could bave dropped a decision to Casamayor, or even been overwhelmed late by a larger oppoenent form whom he hadn't drawn the respect he needed to keep the Cuban off him.

But I think his reputation is a hangover from the days where he fought more cautiously, and probably more correctly.

[Brooklyn1550]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I agree with you Brooklyn, but I do think JMM is not fighting his natural fight any longer. I think he's become determined since the first fight with Pac and the subsequent financial disasters to push himself into becoming more offensive. I think that going back a little bit, Marquez's punches were a bit shorter and he was better balanced.

Not to say that he has neccesarily become a worse fighter for this offensive outlook. It's possible that the old Marquez could bave dropped a decision to Casamayor, or even been overwhelmed late by a larger oppoenent form whom he hadn't drawn the respect he needed to keep the Cuban off him.

But I think his reputation is a hangover from the days where he fought more cautiously, and probably more correctly.

That is a good point. Marquez at 126 was a little lighter on his feet, had sharper punches, and all things considered, was more technical.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by sues2nd

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?

Just pressed "play" on this this second and the fucking music

Before I forget, I wanted to say, there are one or two points against Oscar where Bernard comes up short and ends up in no mans land, vulnerable to punches. Even though an exchange is technically in his interests as the bigger man, he immediatly closes the distance and goes into a "subservient clinch", a clinch that give Oscar a technical advantage in positioning. I beleive that trapping Hopkins may be impossible. This leads me to the conclusion that he may be a sensible pick over Archie Moore.

For somone like me that is not an easy thing to say - picking an ATG middleweight who has gone 1-1 at 175 (as opposed to 170) over Moore, but if Moore can't trap Hopkins he can't beat him...anyway, i'll think about that one. Gonna watch this video.


EDIT: cool vid.

[jecxbox]

Hopkins fights out of a defensive cage propelled by some of the swiftest leg movement that I've ever seen in a boxer, pin point accuracy and absurd ring generalship. The guy is really crazy

[sues2nd]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Just pressed "play" on this this second and the fucking music

Before I forget, I wanted to say, there are one or two points against Oscar where Bernard comes up short and ends up in no mans land, vulnerable to punches. Even though an exchange is technically in his interests as the bigger man, he immediatly closes the distance and goes into a "subservient clinch", a clinch that give Oscar a technical advantage in positioning. I beleive that trapping Hopkins may be impossible. This leads me to the conclusion that he may be a sensible pick over Archie Moore.

For somone like me that is not an easy thing to say - picking an ATG middleweight who has gone 1-1 at 175 (as opposed to 170) over Moore, but if Moore can't trap Hopkins he can't beat him...anyway, i'll think about that one. Gonna watch this video.


EDIT: cool vid.

Thing I love most about that video is the way it shows how brilliant his defensive movement is. Watch in the Tito videos...he is constantly moving to the left, therefore, never allowing Trinidad to set and throw that left hook...then he stops, circles to the right, baits him and punishes him (actually how the KD in the 12th happened). Vs Pavlik, he instead circles to the right, not allowing Kelly to set and throw the right hand...then everytime he stops, circles to the left, baits him and punishes him.


Phenominal!

[dave82]

Fantastic analysis guys.

[teeto]

Very good thread this McGrain, ive always marvelled at what you are saying, its absolutely true, his chin has hardly ever been exposed, and once he becaome experienced, i dont think it has ever been exposed. His chin is tucked in ALL the time, when countering with single and combo shots. Also, when younger, he used to brutally destroy guys along the ropes and his chin was tucked in throughout the duration of that brutal onslaught time and again.

We're all so lucky to have him in our time.